Bruce Friedrichās core thesisāspecified by his new e book MEATāwill probably be acquainted to anybody who has adopted the Good Food Institute over time: utilizing huge portions of crops to feed animals, quite than folks immediately, is an inefficient and environmentally damaging strategy to produce meals.
However heās additionally fairly clear-eyed concerning the problem going through meat alternate options: proper now they’re dearer and never as interesting as meat. This makes for a lower than compelling worth proposition to most customers, who’re fairly hooked on meat even when theyāre not in love with industrialized animal slaughter.
Shoppers will solely change their habits en masse, says Friedrich, if and when alt meat merchandise obtain style and worth parity with their animal-based counterpart, at which level market forces will kick in.
However whatās the roadmap for getting there? And at a time when gross sales in lots of markets are going backwards and funding is drying up, what offers him the boldness that weāll hit such a tipping level any time quickly?
In our dialog (transcribed under), AgFunderNews additionally quizzed Friedrich on the brand new US dietary guidelines, whether or not alt meat is dropping the battle of notion round what counts as āactual meals,ā and whether or not Past Meatās move into the beverage aisle is a brilliant strategic transfer or an admission of defeat.
The transcript under has been frivolously edited for readability:
Elaine Watson: Hiya and welcome, Iām Elaine Watson with AgFunderNews and Iām delighted to be joined by Bruce Friedrich, founder and president of the Good Meals Institute.
Weāre right here to speak about your new e book: MEAT, which is now obtainable on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, or wherever you purchase books. You may as well discover out extra atĀ MeatBook.org.
Now your e book makes a compelling case that animal agriculture is inefficient [at converting feed calories to human food], and dangerous for the atmosphere.
However youāre additionally clear-eyed about the truth that merely making an attempt to influence customers to eat much less meat or swap to alternate options hasnāt proved a really efficient technique.
Your argument has at all times been that individuals would possibly love meat, however they donāt essentially love industrialized animal slaughter, and {that a} tipping level will inevitably come for meat alternate options if and once they can attain style and worth parity.
However my query is, whatās the roadmap for getting there? Earlier than any challenger manufacturers have the size to compete with a mature trade on worth, donāt they’ve to supply one thing higher within the brief time period such that they will cost a premium till they construct economies of scale?
Whatās the compelling case that these manufacturers could make to customers within the close to time period?
Bruce Friedrich: I feel weāre on the trail to that tipping level now, and itās been fascinating to see some very inventive options just lately, however it’s nonetheless the case that globally, gross sales of plant-based meat, theyāre not rising as a lot as they had been, however theyāre rising because the merchandise get higher.
And I feel we’ll proceed to see that occur because the merchandise get higher and higher. Itās additionally the case that Unattainable Meals is constant to introduce new merchandise. So itās fascinating to me to consider the truth that simply three or 4 years in the past, when Food System Innovations, which rolled out its Nectar venture, once they did evaluation of all the prime plant based mostly meats, the one one which glad meat eaters was the Unattainable Burger. Then second place was the Past Burger. And on a scale of zero to 1 which is to say 1 means the meat eater favored it as a lot as standard meat, the most effective hen may do was about 0.6. One of the best {that a} scorching canine may do was about 0.4.
We now haveā¦ extra [plant-based] merchandise that individuals who take pleasure in meat actually like, and about 14, I feel, that most individuals who like meat, like as a lot, or nearly as a lot, as their [animal-based] counterparts. So I feel the technique is proceed to lean in on the well being advantages of the merchandise, proceed to lean in on the opposite the secondary drivers, and proceed to make extra scrumptious merchandise.
When individuals are requested, āWhy have you ever not tried plant-based meat but?ā the 2 causes are, āI donāt assume theyāre going to style goodā and āTheyāre too costly.ā And when the individuals who have tried them and stopped consuming them are requested why did you cease, the highest two causes are, āThey donāt style okā and āTheyāre too costly.ā
Effectively on value, Mosa Meat simply introduced that the price of their burger is down 99.999% in value [vs the cost of a prototype unveiled by founder Dr. Mark Post in 2013]. So I feel issues are transferring in the appropriate route.
Elaine: You talked about how Unattainable and Past scored fairly effectively in these client surveys. However isnāt the truth that Unattainable is now partnering with Equii on high protein pastas and breads and Past Meat is now launching into the beverage aisle an indication that perhaps they donāt see displacing animal meat as the trail to industrial success?
Within the present local weather, doesnāt it appear extra like an acknowledgement that People would possibly need extra protein, however not essentially within the type of plant-based meat?
Bruce: I see Unattainable going into different excessive protein meals, and Past going into drinks and UPSIDE Meals spinning out a b2b cell culture media company [Lucius Labs] and [Australian cultivated meat startup] Vow advertising and marketing prescribed drugs, I see all that as a very good signal.
The purpose is to convey down costs, and also you convey down costs by ramping up quantity. So if Unattainable, and Past and UPSIDE and Vow can market different issues which are increased worth with a view to ramp up quantity and produce down costs for his or her core product, for plant based mostly meats and the cultivated meats, I see that as a implausible signal.
Elaine: Going again to the place how weāre going to get to this tipping level. You talked about constructing volumes, economies of scale and also youāve additionally talked advances within the cultivated meat house which are going to convey prices down. However may a tipping level finally come from increased meat costs pushed by, who is aware of, a brand new pandemic, zoonotic ailments or different components which may push up costs?
Or is it unhelpful to type of hope that one thing exterior like that’s going to occur to alter the equation?
Bruce: Effectively, I undoubtedly wouldn’t hope for increased [meat] costs [for] customers. Iām additionally not an enormous fan of hope [as a strategy], as I’ll say that for 30 years, folks in meat discount advocacy have been claiming that the world can’t produce extra meatā¦ I keep in mind in 2006 the FAO report āLivestockās Long Shadowā got here out, and mentioned that animal agriculture is without doubt one of the prime three causes of all the worst environmental harmsā¦ Effectively weāre now producing 40% extra meat than we had been 20 years in the past.
So that you have a look at one thing just like the World Resources Institute report [from late 2018], what they are saying is that in 2050 on our present trajectory, except we’ve important crop productiveness positive aspects, there will probably be no forests or savannas left. That’s what meat demand and markets result in.
Certain, the meals provide is extremely fragile, however my goodness, we made it via COVID. We made it via the shock, the preliminary shock of grain manufacturing in Ukraine all of a sudden being off of world markets. So international agriculture continues to make it via.
However you already know, perhaps notā¦.my complete chapter 4 [of the new book, MEAT] is about the opportunity of a considerably extra impactful pandemic that might occur. Chapters 9 and 10 speak concerning the fragility of the present provide chain, all the additional levels of manufacturing, all the different dependencies. So positive these issues may create shocks that make various proteins extra aggressive as standard proteins go up in worth. However I donāt assume we will depend on that.
Elaine: You speak within the e book about how authorities funding has helped plenty of industries, whether or not itās house exploration, renewable power, EVs and so forth. However what proof do you’ve that the Trump administration has any curiosity in funding an alt meat moonshot?
Bruce: In 2019 it had been about 15 years since there had been a major authorities funding in cultivated meat. The final one was, I feel, 2005 or 2007, when the Dutch authorities [helped fund the cultivated meat research that led to] that burger that Mark Publish made [in 2013], paid for by [Google cofounder] Sergey Brin [who personally invested in the innovation]. And that then turned the corporate Mosa Meat.
The National Science Foundation under Donald Trump put more than $3 million into a cultivated meat project at UC Davis. Additionally at about the identical time, it was Donald Trumpās Secretary of Agriculture, Sonny Perdue, and Donald Trumpās FDA commissioner Dr. Scott Gottlieb, that created the regulatory path that allowed the USA to be the second nation within the historical past of the world to approve cultivated meat on the market.
Curiously, throughout the Biden administration, there have been two firms that had new merchandise authorized over the course of 4 years whereas in about 90 days, the second Trump administration had already crashed via that when it comes to approvals.
Equally, for those who have a look at one thing just like the bipartisan biotechnology commission, which includes Senator Todd Younger from Indiana on the Republican aspect, Consultant Stephanie Bice from Oklahoma on the Republican aspect, after which Ro Khanna and Alex Padilla on The Democratic aspect, and it consists of various proteins explicitly. So Iām undecided itās a prime precedence for the Trump administration howeverā¦
Elaine: However some regulatory approvals and a small bit of cash right here and there, that doesnāt actually quantity to pumping tens of hundreds of thousands or billions of {dollars} right into a moonshot, does it?
Bruce: It doesnāt, which is without doubt one of the causes that itās very thrilling to see Korea, Japan, Israel, Singapore, the UK, Germany, Brazil, India, plenty of different nations world wide taking the chance of different protein tremendous critically, and organizations just like the Middle for Strategic and Worldwide Research (CSIS), they launched a 4,500 phrase report on the chance of different proteins and framed it when it comes to financial competitiveness and nationwide safety.
They are saying the US authorities ought to prioritize various proteins alongside issues like superior chips for AI and biopharma. And naturally, CSIS is without doubt one of the most famous assume tanks on this planet for nationwide safety and is awfully bipartisan. My first alternative for the individual to write down the foreword for my e book was Caitlin Welsh, who’s the director of world meals and water safety over there at CSIS. She was about 5 years, I feel, within the Obama administration, after which for all the first Trump administration she was on the Nationwide Safety Council, and Iām extremely gratified that she did price the e book.
So, you already know, weāll see, however we proceed to be optimistic about working with the Trump administration on various proteins, and we’ve plenty of Republican in addition to Democratic supporters for what it’s that weāre making an attempt to do, together with the traditional meat trade.
Elaine: Can I ask you about that, as a result of just a few years in the past, all the huge meat firms had been investing closely in various proteins, whether or not it was pumping cash into among the cultivated meat firms, organising creating their very own ranges of plant based mostly meat merchandise.
They usually had been positioning themselves as protein firms or protein agnostic. They simply wish to become profitable, proper; theyāre not essentially involved about what the protein supply is. The identical factor with huge oil firms just a few years in the past, investing in algae, biofuels and so forth. However many of those firms have now pulled again as a result of it isnāt paying off. What’s going to change their minds?
Bruce: I imply, all the firms have protected their fairness within the cultivated meat firms that theyāve invested in and Iām not conscious of any firm that has truly pulled again.
Elaine: JBS arrange a separate plant-based meats division [called Planterra Foods], after which pulled [the plug on] that pretty abruptly as a result of it wasnāt making any cashā¦
Bruce: After which they purchased Vegetarian Butcher [via JBSā Vivera subsidiary], which I feel is essentially the most extensively distributed plant-based meat firm in Europe and performs the most effective in style exams. They usually have ramped up manufacturing of their plant-based meat product in Brazil, supplying all the grocery shops in Brazil, supplying Burger King in Brazil.
You possibly canāt count on firms to make choices which are dangerous enterprise choices, clearly. However, I imply, it was 2024 so not that way back, that Tyson board member John Randall Tyson spoke on the Concordia Summit and mentioned we see various proteins as the subsequent frontier.
I donāt count on them to do issues which are dangerous choices for his or her backside line. However on the finish of the day, the inefficiencies of biking crops via animals that make them so environmentally problematic, that drive starvation and malnutrition, are additionally an enormous enterprise alternative.
You realize, weāve been doing [animal ag] for 12,000 years. It is not sensible. Itās inefficient. If we will replace it, itās going to be a extra worthwhile strategy to make meat.
Firms usually are not going out of their strategy to make one thing occur that’s tough, however they’re actually persevering with to be supportive, to take a position and to see [alt meat] as an actual alternative, as a result of it’s one.
Elaine: On the GFI, you place plenty of religion in science for fixing the alt meat style and texture drawback. So trying on the plant based mostly house, we will now genetically engineer microbes to supply animal proteins, issues like [meat protein] myoglobin, animal fat, or animal-like fat which you could then add to extruded plant proteins to create a extra āmeatyā product and so forth.
However the nearer you get to animal meat, the extra processed a few of these merchandise would possibly seem. And isnāt {that a} type of problem within the present atmosphere once weāve obtained new dietary guidelines that explicitly speak about extremely processed meals?
Weāve additionally obtained a federal definition of ultra processed foods coming, which can lead to, who is aware of, warning labels or rankings, or some type of entrance of pack labeling.
Bruce: Sure, in the USA and to a point in Europe, not likely wherever else in the remainder of the world, thereās the ultra-processedā¦. grouping of all the [alt meat] merchandise collectively. I suppose the very first thing to say about that’s that all the science signifies that plant-based meats are more healthy than the merchandise theyāre changing.
They’ve much less fats, they’ve much less saturated fats, they don’t have any ldl cholesterol. They’ve extra fiber. They’ve extra protein throughout all the plant-based merchandise in that Nectar examine that I used to be mentioning. The Unattainable scorching canine has thrice as a lot protein as a beef scorching canine, and all the merchandise have extra of these important vitamins.
While you have a look at what the issues are about extremely processing that make them problematic, it tends to be sugar and fats and caloric density. Thatās what Ā Dr. Kevin Corridor, previously from NIH, mentioned in his formative study. Itās caloric density, and plant-based meats are much less calorically dense. There was additionally a peer reviewed study from Stanford Medical College by a man named Dr. Christopher Gardner, and he fed folks Past Meatās pork, beef and hen and natural [regular] pork, beef and hen, and located that predictablyā¦ for those who feed someone one thing thatās decrease in saturated fats and ldl cholesterol and better in fiber and protein, youāre going to have higher outcomes.
Elaine: Iām not making the argument thereās something unsuitable with these [processed alt meat] merchandise, however that is the battle of notion, isnāt it? And in the intervening time, I feel the trade might be dropping it?
However letās go to the new guidelines, which suggest a close to doubling of protein intakes. Is that excellent news for the alt meat trade, or probably dangerous information, as a result of not less than when it comes to the [new inverted pyramid] graphics, the place youāve obtained an enormous slab of meat on the prime, meat and dairy proteins are on the fore.
Bruce: Effectively, I do wish to simply take a step again and say it’s nonetheless true that all the polls which were accomplished ever of why individuals are not consuming plant based mostly meat, or why they stopped consuming plant based mostly meat, the highest two causes are nonetheless style and worth. They didnāt like them they usuallyāre too costly. Processing has inched up [as a concern], but it surelyās nonetheless an enormous hole between these two issues [taste and price] and processing.
Elaine: I agree with you. And clearly there are numerous merchandise that we eat each single day which are extremely processed, but when folks like them, they style good they usuallyāre delivering a profit that individuals understand, then completely theyāll purchase them. Iām simply pondering extra about if we get for instance, entrance of pack labeling round processed meals. How are meat various merchandise going to be positioned?
Anyway, letās speak about cash. So because you wrote your e book, Believer Meats has develop into bancrupt, Meatable has referred to as it quits, GOOD Meat appears to have hit pause as [parent company Eat Just] is focusing extra on its Simply Egg enterprise. And UPSIDE Meals has type of retrenched somewhat bit.
Most of the firms I cowl are I’d say, successfully in hibernation mode, in the event that they havenāt gone bust already. I agree, media prices are coming down and weāve obtained some fascinating applied sciences round new bioreactors and sterilization strategies. However personal sector funding has nearly dried up.
You say that in some markets, individuals are recognizing that this expertise may very well be vital for meals safety and so forth, however, however proper now, the cash has nearly dried up. Whatās going to convey it again?
Bruce: I feel we’re seeing it begin to come again. So Better Meat Company [mycoprotein] simply raised, I feel, $30 million, BlueNalu (cultivated tuna] raised over $11 million Mosa Meat greater than $17 million.
We’ve seen authorities assist go up actually each single yr since governments began funding on this house. And I feel itās value fascinated withā¦ that that is what an innovation ecosystem seems to be like. Flashback to the early dates of the auto, and also you had within the first 10 years, 500 automobile firms exit of enterprise. It wasnāt an indictment of cars. It was the truth that operating a enterprise is tough, otherwise you have a look at one thing just like the dotcom bubble when it burst, NASDAQ misplaced 80% of its worth and went from $113 a share to lower than $6.
However firms that got here out on the opposite aspect, they grew in dimension and penetration and success. So itās actually true that itās a tricky time in the intervening time, however firms are extremely undervalued, like these firms which are value investing in, investments in The Higher Meat Firm, and people in BlueNalu, these are actually good investments for the traders, and there are plenty of different discount basement costs for these firms. You realize, Unattainable is privately held, but it surely appears to be thriving. Vegetarian Butcher is owned by JBS they usually appear to be thriving. And Iām actually excited to see Unattainable and Past and UPSIDE and Vow taking a look at different methods to get add cash to the income line.
Elaine: Some folks would argue that the GFI has underestimated the function of meals tradition round animal meatā¦ that itās not only a case of as soon as we get to style and worth parity, thereāll be this inevitable tipping level, however that itās extra difficult than that, that animal meat is a key a part of meals tradition and itās actually arduous to shift entrenched client habits.
I imply, I type of agree with that, however Iām additionally seeing proof daily that consuming habits can shift fairly basically. I imply, weāre all consuming, hummus and sushi now within the US when perhaps we werenāt 20 years in the past. So the place do you see that argument round tradition, as a result of weāre additionally seeing alt meat has gotten embroiled within the tradition wars.
Bruce: I feel the idea of alt meat within the tradition wars is overblown. I imply, itās gotten caught up somewhat bit, I suppose, in Europe and somewhat bit within the US. However you already know, essentially the most outstanding Republican to take a stand in opposition to various meats is Ron DeSantis. Heās not, you already know, precisely a pinnacle.
And the whole conservative institution, from The Cato Institute to Nationwide Assessment to The Dispatch, theyāre all like, that is entrepreneurship, that is small enterprise, that is client alternative, that is innovation. So I feel, I feel oftentimes, particularly the media is likely to be trying to play up the tradition battle angle, however Iām undecided thatās actually right here.
Elaine: Effectively thereās undoubtedly been laws throughout a bunch of states, and proposed laws making an attempt to limit all the pieces from the best way you market plant based mostly meats to allowing cultivated meat. I imply, thatās only a reality, isnāt it? And equally, Iām not likely feeling the love [for alt meat] from the present administration, RFK Jr or JD Vance, I imply, donāt they use phrases like pretend meat and so forth?
Bruce: I havenāt heard both of them say that. The media say that they’ve mentioned that, and perhaps they’ve, however I’ll simply say the Nationwide Cattlemanās Beef Affiliation and the American Meat Institute usually are not in opposition to cultivated meatā¦
Elaine: Iām loving the relentless optimism, however simply going again to the scenario within the US. I get [US retail] knowledge each month from Circana that claims meat various gross sales are taking place, and weāre now again at 2019 ranges or one thing like that. I admire youāre saying the expansion curve isn’t essentially going to going up like a hockey stick the best way folks had been predicting just a few years in the past. However Iām not even seeing a type of regular improve, not less than within the US market.
It looks like weāre truly entering into the wrong way in the intervening time. I imply, take the event you were at recently at Tufts. Mike Messersmith at [foodtech startup] Lasso was saying, In case you choose up the cellphone and say, Hey, Iām a plant-based meat firm making an attempt to boost cash, the investor goes to say ādeleteā, simply as a reflexive response lately. So Iām simply questioning the place this optimism is type of coming from, not less than within the US market?
Bruce: Effectively, I do wish to take a step again and say that the e book isn’t relentlessly optimistic.
Elaine: Iām nonetheless not likely, personally seeing that weāre on this nice trajectory, that weāre in some way inevitably going to get to this style and worth parityā¦
Bruce: Effectively, I imply, I donāt assume itās inevitable. The e book makes an attempt to be a roadmap for a way we get there, and type of degree set whatās true. So for those whoāre studying chapter 11, which addresses the query about when are we going to have style and worth parity, I say fairly explicitly that we’d not. However the science is enough. So is that this going to be an innovation that dies due to pessimism as a substitute of scientific impossibility?
I wish to have the dialog that weāre having, however I level out that [sales in] 2019 had been nonetheless, I feel, greater than twice the gross sales of 2016 for plant-based meat. Iām not saying it that itās not an issue that gross sales are down from their heyday. Nevertheless itās additionally not fairly the disaster that some folks would possibly assume it’s.
After which the opposite factorā¦ some folks thought I used to be unreasonably imply in chapter seven, the place I identified that after Unattainable and Past, there have been one thing like 35 plant-based meat firms that claimed they had been the subsequent Unattainable or the subsequent Past, they usually have merchandise to market in six to eight months [that didnāt deliver]. Nevertheless it took tens of hundreds of thousands of {dollars} in analysis and improvement from each Past and Unattainable to get their merchandise to the place they’re, and itās nonetheless the case that three out of the 4 merchandise that do the most effective [in blind taste tests] are Unattainable merchandise.
I feel the early optimism assumed merchandise would proceed to get higher, however a lot of the merchandise that had been launched weren’t any higher; they had been the subsequent Backyard Burger.
Elaine: But when as you say, it takes all that money and time to develop the most effective improvements, the cash, not less than, doesnāt appear to be there in the intervening time for firms that do wish to make [better products]?
Bruce: In 2019 the quantity of funding from governments for analysis and improvement scaling outdoors of the USA was about $650,000 in India. Itās now a whole lot of hundreds of thousands of {dollars} a yr.
10 years in the past, there was actually no scientist on the planet who was getting authorities cash to do protein analysis. Now itās 1000’s. The pure science papers on this space, had been I feel 4 in all of historical past, 10 years in the past, and in cultivated meat, there have been 160 in 2024 alone.
10 years in the past, there was no Unattainable Burger or Past Burger. So weāre making plenty of progress, even within the face of the headwinds. Weāve nonetheless obtained a protracted strategy to go. I imply, you already know, with cultivated meat, itās [costs are] down 99.999% however thatās nonetheless 2x the price of manufacturing for an [animal-derived beef] burger. And hen, pork and fish are even inexpensive than that.
However the primary first rules evaluation is that it’s much more environment friendly to supply plant-based meat or cultivated meat than to supply standard meat. So Iām optimisticā¦ however I wouldnāt have written the e book if I assumed that [reaching taste and price parity for alt meat] was inevitable.
The purpose of the e book is to say, that is the hurt weāre fixing for and these are the alternatives, and I’ve a worldwide outlook. So even for those whoāre pessimistic within the US, have a look at whatās taking place China. Take a look at whatās taking place in Korea and Israel and Singapore, within the UK and Switzerland, within the EUā¦ thereās plenty of scientific exercise. And also you donāt change any trade in a single day.
Elaine: I wish to ask concerning the time period āvarious protein.ā Was it on reflection a mistake to make use of that time period by type of making animal protein appear to be the default or the benchmark, or is it only a case of, effectively weāve obtained to name it one thing, proper?
Bruce: Yeah. And I attempt to say plant-based and cultivated meat as a lot as attainable. There was plenty of pushback on various proteins. Itās simply, you already know, then folks provide you with [terms such as ] inexperienced proteinā¦ and we do have to name them one thing. However Iām very open to different alternate options. I feel complementary proteins is sweet. Novel proteins is sweetā¦Ā However I donāt assume that any of our struggles are nomenclature-based.
Elaine: In case you and I are again right here in 5 yearsā time, what do you assume our dialog will probably be about?
Bruce: The conclusion of the e book is actually centered on saying weāre now seeing governments lean in due to meals safety, meals methods, resilience, financial competitiveness, particularly nations like China, Korea, Japan. Their meals self-sufficiency numbers are very dangerous, and they’re extremely tech ahead.
I used to be in an occasion in Korea perhaps six weeks in the past, and all [of the speakers] had been very on hearth for various proteins and meals tech writ giant. And the one that ran AI was saying Korea isn’t going to compete with China and the US on AI writ giant, however we will completely dominate in meals expertise. So it does really feel to me like weāre at a essential time for determination making.
We nonetheless donāt have the extent of assist throughout the multinationals, throughout the trigger based mostly folks. However issues are transferring in the appropriate route, and if we proceed on the upward trajectory of assist, understanding, authorities assist, and so on. I feel we will make an amazing quantity of progress in 5 years.
I feel we may very well be at style parity with plenty of plant-based merchandise. I feel we will see the cultivated meat value of manufacturing actually falling and I feel we may see manufacturing infrastructure throughout each applied sciences scaling up.
However thatās all going to require much more folks being concerned and enthusiastic, and the optimistic upward trajectory that weāve seen from governments persevering with to development upward. In order thatās what all of us at GFI try to assist and make occur. Nevertheless itās not self-executing. So I actually do attempt within the e book to be each cautious and optimistic.
š Study extra about Bruceās e book at MeatBook.org
The put up š„ Taste, price, or bust: Bruce Friedrichās roadmap for alt meat appeared first on AgFunderNews.
ååøč ļ¼Elaine Watsonļ¼č½¬č½¬čÆ·ę³Øęåŗå¤ļ¼https://robotalks.cn/%f0%9f%8e%a5-taste-price-or-bust-bruce-friedrichs-roadmap-for-alt-meat/
